Comments from the Finger: Finding a class to assign the Master Thrower was arguably more difficult than writing it. What to you do with Hawkeye, if you take away his bow and arrows and give him only darts, handaxes, throwing daggers, and shurikens? It can be argued, he's more of a lightly armored fighter, because of the reliance on ranged attack types, or that he's a rogue, because of the emphasis on swift combat mobility and making precision-based sneak attacks. Ultimately, I want with ranger because Rangers need a broader pool of PrCs, and I have oodles of fun in store for rogue and fighter characters in future posts.
Master Thrower
Master throwers, as is often joked, rely on a fighting style that clearly involves disarming themselves. In truth, someone who can bury a dagger or a handaxe in your skull from across the room is never a force to be underestimated. True Master Throwers depend on quick reflexes, good planning, and, of course, deadly aim to survive in a world that values brute force over clever tactics.
Additional Fighting Style
Starting when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain the Archery fighting style, or the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style.
Deadeye
At 3rd level, your uncanny aim grants you the following features.
- Thrown weapons you use have double the normal range.
- You can draw or stow any number of thrown weapons when you would normally be able to draw or store only one.
- You can use two-weapon fighting with thrown weapons, even when the one-handed weapons you are wielding aren't light.
At 11th level, when you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can throw two one-handed weapons, rather than one, as a bonus action.
Defensive Throw
By 7th level, you have learned to throw weapons to interrupt an enemy's attack. As a reaction when an attacker you can see makes an attack against you, you can make a ranged attack roll with one of your thrown weapons. If the result of your roll is greater than the result of your opponent's, you can reduce the total of the attack roll by 5, to a minimum of 1.
Weak Spot
At 11th level, attacks you make with thrown weapons score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
Throw Anything
By 15th level, your mastery of thrown weapons has grown extensive. You can treat any weapon that isn't heavy as a thrown weapon with a range of 20/60 feet.
Changelog: 12/7/15: Deadeye:
12/x/15: Deadeye extra attacks changed: Only hold thrown weapons. Your primary attack need not be with a finesse weapon, but the extra attacks must be. You only get 1 extra attack at 3rd level, and the second extra attack comes online at 7th level. This keeps the balance in check better with Sharpshooter+Hunter's Mark optimization.
8/19/16: Overhaul!
Additional Fighting Style: added
Deadeye: Reworked to better balance with TWF rules. Second throw moved to 11th level.
Throw Anything: Any weapon that isn't heavy: Range 20/60
Weak Spot: Reworded
As with the rest of these conversions, this looks very well done. I'm pretty impressed by how quickly you're releasing these.
ReplyDeleteThanks! Frankly, I've been trying to stagger my releases, as I have a sizable backlog that are in the last stages of polishing at the moment.
DeleteReally love this one, I have a question though.
ReplyDeleteThe level 11 feature (weak spot) while definitely strong, is really boring compared to what the master thrower could offer. Why not use one of the more interesting features the class had in 3.5, since it was all about cool weapon tricks. Some of them seem like they wouldn't be too hard to introduce. Example off the top of my head :
Two with one blow - take disadvantage on the attack to get a chance to hit 2 opponents at once with a single attack
Sneaky shot - use a bonus action (and give up the two bonus attacks n the process) to make a sleight of hand check opposed by the enemy's perception, if you win, get advantage on your next attack
Of course this would need work, but there are other interesting ones, like tumbling toss, to throw while disengaging, etc. These are just the two that stand out the most to me. So, yeah. Just a suggestion, since improved critical, while strong, lacks flavor and doesn't add much to the class.
I went through all the old tricks and couldn't find many that compared to current mechanics. When I had eliminated the tricks that didn't translate well, I was left with a list too small to really base a select-able, invocation-like feature list. Untimately, this was easier and cleaner to implement, and I figured I didn't need add too much flavor to Master Thrower anyway; it's awesome out of the box
DeleteAslong as you have enough actions to draw 2 throw weapon, you where already allowed to throw them both in the same turn. One with the attack action, the other one with the bonus action if both weapons have the light property.
ReplyDeleteThe 2nd level two-weapon fighting style would normaly allow you to enhance your second attack with your ability modifier. Deadeye negates that effect for a third weapon attack.
However, if you reach atleast 16 dex, that deadeye feature would be detrimental in every simulation. Because all finesse throwing weapons have a d4 - 2.5 average damage. So you have the decision to either get atleast +X damage from your ability modifier or you have the chance to attack again (risk of failing) and rolling another d4. To actually get better damage you are forced to use strenght throwing weapons, but thats completly changing the focus of the stats when building this character. But you would get access to 1d6 weapons, still getting your ability modifier and so on..
Deadeye needs a buff for the smaller finesse thrown weapons (allowing the ability modifier on the first bonus attack only [RAW]) or even make every throwing weapon a finesse weapon.
We actually play tested this, and I know exactly what you're getting at. The 1d4 hits basically did nothingnothing, even in rapid successon. I'll edit this soon to include ability scores modifiers with damage on additional attacks granted by deadeye, which I think should fix the damage issue.
ReplyDeleteIf you do that, whats the intended "Fighting Style" then? "Deadeye" will give the benefit of "Two-Weapon Fighting"; "Archery" only works with ranged weapons like Darts and Nets (the only 2 ranged / throwing weapons).
DeleteOne could say that the easy pick up of throwable weapons from "Deadeye" allows someone to use single Daggers and benefit from "Dueling" and the "Ability Modifier". But that doesn't seems to be intended either ^^
I could see a synergy with the "sharpshooter" feat, getting a chance to deal 1d4+10 damage twice instead of dealing a safer 1d4+dex, which would be a decent trade off ^^
DeleteI was wondering if the extra thrown attack feature worked with Sharpshooter and Hunters Mark. With the use of a Feat, Sharpshooter's backside, a first level spell and rapidly depleting ammunition you could put down
ReplyDelete1d4+Dex+10Sharp+1d6Mark+1d4+10Sharp+1d6Mark+1d4+10Sharp+1d6Mark
This seems pretty significant for a level three character. It's also a decent investment but I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting something here.
By RAW, you can't use sharpshooter with thrown weapons. They aren't ranged weapons, they can just use ranged attacks. This mitigates a huge amount of the damage a Master Thrower could pull off at this level.
DeleteOutside of that, a throw can deal (using handaxes): 6d6+Dex a turn, if he manages to hit three times in a row. This might seem like a lot, but pulling off consistent hits is pretty tough.
By RAW, you can't use sharpshooter with thrown weapons. They aren't ranged weapons, they can just use ranged attacks. This mitigates a huge amount of the damage a Master Thrower could pull off at this level.
DeleteOutside of that, a throw can deal (using handaxes): 6d6+Dex a turn, if he manages to hit three times in a row. This might seem like a lot, but pulling off consistent hits is pretty tough.
Hey thanks for getting back to me. Oh I can see you guys changed up Deadeye to allow any thrown weapon type. I feel that adds some cool flexibility. I'm really digging this class.
DeleteWouldn't you have to use your STR Modifier for handaxes instead of Dex though?
I've honestly been pretty confused on how thrown weapons function as far as feat application and whatnot. Sage advice was pretty split on this too last time I checked.
Literally within a day Sage Advice trolls the hell out of us.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/19/sharpshooter-feat-with-dagger/
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/19/dagger-archery/
Alright awesome. This is a really exciting class that's very relevant to a Campaign I'm looking forward to so sorry if I'm a bit aggressive.
ReplyDeleteI was also wondering if this was affected by wearing a shield. Do you need both arms open to use the Deadeye Extra attacks? Can you play this class fully while wearing a shield?
I did a lot of math and the least-interesting iteration actually worked the best: you can make 1 attack as a bonus action; the second one comes online at 7th. Also, there's some general tweaks to the deadeye feature. You can check the changelog if you want specifics.
DeleteHappy gaming!
Hey so as for the weapon attacks. Does this mean a full STR Thrower is reasonable because you put out your 1d6 Handaxe, then you throw your Knife can you use your STR modifier to hit with the Knife attack or must you use your dexterity modifier to hit with the bonus action knife.
ReplyDeleteI think you guys took a smooth and diplomatic approach by having deadeye classify thrown weapons as Ranged Weapon Attacks. As the class stands I'd probably go for a Monk/Ranger Multiclass Master Thrower. With 3 For Slayer and Hunters Mark and then Flurrying on Ranked attacks. It might even be best to go pure Monk. Definitely gonna grab some playtesting cause this in my opinion a really exciting and necessary archetype to explore.
I'm kinda confused here. The edited ability says you can make an extra attack with a thrown finesse weapon as a bonus action but can't any character do that as per the two-weapon fighting rules?
ReplyDeleteI'm away from my books, but I'm pretty sure two weapon fighting only applies to melee attacks
Deleteno looks like it's there
ReplyDelete"Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light
melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can
use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee
weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t
add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus
attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you
can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee
attack with it."
I think it could be fixed giving the opportunity of using the ranger's bonus action spell on the first attack ( so at 7th one of the 4 hit could be enchanted).the throwing-based classes also have another problem: too expensive to buy a set of magic dagger and it needs to be considered for balancing it. Sorry for my bad english
DeleteSooo... My DM doesn't believe in allowing the constant unsheathing of weapons without using actions and such. I know what you mean when you say "you can draw or stow any number of thrown weapons on your turn," but some clarification would be nice like being able to stow and draw and number of thrown weapons as free actions or as a part of the attacking proccess. I'm sorry for asking such a ridiculous request, but I really wanna play this archetype and my DM takes RAW pretty seriously.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I've been meaning to tweak this class for some time, and now is as good a time as any.
DeleteProblem is, in 5th edition, drawing a weapon is just something you do as *part* of your action, which means I can't invoke free actions like I could in 3.5. I'll try to find a good middle ground on it when edits happen.
Overhaul complete! Hopefully that fixes a lot of your DM's concerns.
DeleteThank you. I really appreciate this. Now he has nothing to say when i throw multiple handaxes and finally become Olaf. lol :P
DeleteAlso, sorry for the very late response. I'm not use to people responding so fast.
DeleteIt's all good! Happy gaming, friend!
Delete"Starting when you choose this atchertype..." - Needs to be "archetype".
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm still a little lost on the option to take the archery fighting style with this archetype. As far as I know, a thrown weapon is still, unfortunately, not considered a ranged weapon, and does not benefit from the Archery Fighting Style.
For a long time I thought this was true as well, but Sage Advice (and possibly Player's Handbook errata) has since clarified that thrown weapons do, in fact, benefit from the Archery fighting style.
Delete