Really liking this western series, and great implementation of the Apache. I was curious about the Ancestor's Axe feature. Why 2d6+2 damage? Why not 2d8 damage? The flat +2 damage bonus just seems atypical in 5e. Usually if there's a damage bonus it's tied to some stat modifier or some such.
Minor nitpick: It's "Animal Handling" proficiency, not "Handle Animal".
You're right about the skill name. I'll xhabg the that ASAP. My reasoning in the damage was that it was the damage from 4 or so +1 weapons weilded he ghosts, so I made the damage match. I'll probably simplify that damage too soon
Giving 2 different 5th lvl spells at 6th lvl seems a bit unbalanced. Sure, they're just info, but they still count as lvl 5 spells. Maybe switch it with the Ambush Tactics?
Hi, this is actually really stereotypical, racist, and not okay to use as toys or an identity—especially for your entertainment. Please be respectful of Apache people and take it down. Thank you.
You know, this criticism has been leveled at this class a few times, and I'd like to discuss it, and I'll more than happily take it down if you level some fair points. I don't mean to debate you, I'd just like to engage in some discussion so I can be assured whatever decision I make is correct.
Naturally, the nature of the role-playing game medium asks players to adopt a character as their avatar to interact with the world. This is different than providing disposable monster stats, or something that paints the apache people as throw away caricatures -- this invites players to build their character as an apache warrior, and gives some mechanical assistance in that endevour. By what right do you insist that players are not allowed to use this particular identity in their games? Is it similarly in bad taste to play as a character of a different gender or race than your own, or to depict a religion that is not your own, or can such a practice foster some empathy and familiarity with people from different backgrounds?
I think this is just one of those situations where "everything is offensive to someone, somewhere." Even if it does contain some mechanically stereotypical stuff, that doesn't make it wrong, or even inaccurate. Its no more wrong that making a gun-toting 6-shooter 10-gallon hat wearing western gunslinger, complete with chaps and boots with spurs, or a black-garbed ninja chucking kunai. Its ultimately up to the players (and dm) role-playing the character to determine what the character is like, not a homebrew list of ability ideas.
Its a shame that it was taken down because I just looked at it yesterday and was seriously considering playing one as a character.
The gentleman above made a good point, even if he didn't want to substantiate it with any /reasons/. However, I had some very kind people email me, who elaborated this point very, very well.
Ultimately, I tried to balance the cinematic Western genre with a D&D mindset, and that didn't give me any room to avoid the real-life problems this class poses. When we approach this genre in the future, I think I'd like to take a Weird West direction on it, giving me more room to blend in magic and mysticism, and allowing me to put some aesthetic distance between the genre and the real world.
If you still need the mechanics, they're on the Wild West Update -- that's not going anywhere.
Ah, I see I felt like it would have been a bit sad if a mechanically fun looking class got deleted out of existence is all.
I didn't realize the Wild West update was still up, clicking the "Wild West" tag on this post brings up the individual wild west subclasses, but not the Wild West compilation .pdf itself (I had to type 'wild west' in the search bar to find it.) That is probably just a minor tag oversight though.
Essentially, yes. In truth, the name was the crux of the problem, not the mechanics; Apache is a groups of specific tribes, not a class or archetype of character. It's functionally similar to making a knight-like subclass and calling it the French, or making a samurai-like class and calling it the Japanese.
In my mind, there is more than enough room for making characters and subclasses based around native american warriors, chiefs, and holy men and women, just as there is room for Samurai, Knights, Gunslingers, Ninja, Monks, Clerics, and any other sort of fantasy or historical warrior/adventurer trope. Native american tribes HAD warriors, and it's a disservice to insinuate that they shouldn't be a part of your fantasy roleplay especially if that roleplay occurs in the wild west. That understanding, though, is taken with the understanding that the caricature of the Noble Savage, the Indian Brave, is both a potentially offensive stereotype and doesn't take into account the vast differences between the many tribes of north America.
Really liking this western series, and great implementation of the Apache. I was curious about the Ancestor's Axe feature. Why 2d6+2 damage? Why not 2d8 damage? The flat +2 damage bonus just seems atypical in 5e. Usually if there's a damage bonus it's tied to some stat modifier or some such.
ReplyDeleteMinor nitpick: It's "Animal Handling" proficiency, not "Handle Animal".
You're right about the skill name. I'll xhabg the that ASAP. My reasoning in the damage was that it was the damage from 4 or so +1 weapons weilded he ghosts, so I made the damage match. I'll probably simplify that damage too soon
DeleteGiving 2 different 5th lvl spells at 6th lvl seems a bit unbalanced. Sure, they're just info, but they still count as lvl 5 spells. Maybe switch it with the Ambush Tactics?
ReplyDeleteHi, this is actually really stereotypical, racist, and not okay to use as toys or an identity—especially for your entertainment. Please be respectful of Apache people and take it down. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteYou know, this criticism has been leveled at this class a few times, and I'd like to discuss it, and I'll more than happily take it down if you level some fair points. I don't mean to debate you, I'd just like to engage in some discussion so I can be assured whatever decision I make is correct.
DeleteNaturally, the nature of the role-playing game medium asks players to adopt a character as their avatar to interact with the world. This is different than providing disposable monster stats, or something that paints the apache people as throw away caricatures -- this invites players to build their character as an apache warrior, and gives some mechanical assistance in that endevour. By what right do you insist that players are not allowed to use this particular identity in their games? Is it similarly in bad taste to play as a character of a different gender or race than your own, or to depict a religion that is not your own, or can such a practice foster some empathy and familiarity with people from different backgrounds?
I think this is just one of those situations where "everything is offensive to someone, somewhere." Even if it does contain some mechanically stereotypical stuff, that doesn't make it wrong, or even inaccurate. Its no more wrong that making a gun-toting 6-shooter 10-gallon hat wearing western gunslinger, complete with chaps and boots with spurs, or a black-garbed ninja chucking kunai. Its ultimately up to the players (and dm) role-playing the character to determine what the character is like, not a homebrew list of ability ideas.
DeleteIts a shame that it was taken down because I just looked at it yesterday and was seriously considering playing one as a character.
The gentleman above made a good point, even if he didn't want to substantiate it with any /reasons/. However, I had some very kind people email me, who elaborated this point very, very well.
DeleteUltimately, I tried to balance the cinematic Western genre with a D&D mindset, and that didn't give me any room to avoid the real-life problems this class poses. When we approach this genre in the future, I think I'd like to take a Weird West direction on it, giving me more room to blend in magic and mysticism, and allowing me to put some aesthetic distance between the genre and the real world.
If you still need the mechanics, they're on the Wild West Update -- that's not going anywhere.
Ah, I see
DeleteI felt like it would have been a bit sad if a mechanically fun looking class got deleted out of existence is all.
I didn't realize the Wild West update was still up, clicking the "Wild West" tag on this post brings up the individual wild west subclasses, but not the Wild West compilation .pdf itself (I had to type 'wild west' in the search bar to find it.)
That is probably just a minor tag oversight though.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis isn't open for discussion, nor does it warrant comment: a friendly warning from the Digits.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteSo it got taken down because people got offended, really?
ReplyDeleteEssentially, yes. In truth, the name was the crux of the problem, not the mechanics; Apache is a groups of specific tribes, not a class or archetype of character. It's functionally similar to making a knight-like subclass and calling it the French, or making a samurai-like class and calling it the Japanese.
DeleteIn my mind, there is more than enough room for making characters and subclasses based around native american warriors, chiefs, and holy men and women, just as there is room for Samurai, Knights, Gunslingers, Ninja, Monks, Clerics, and any other sort of fantasy or historical warrior/adventurer trope. Native american tribes HAD warriors, and it's a disservice to insinuate that they shouldn't be a part of your fantasy roleplay especially if that roleplay occurs in the wild west. That understanding, though, is taken with the understanding that the caricature of the Noble Savage, the Indian Brave, is both a potentially offensive stereotype and doesn't take into account the vast differences between the many tribes of north America.
Why not just name it "Way of the Tomahawk"?
DeleteDarn, I was really curious about this one. Any way you could email it to me?
ReplyDeleteIt's still in the http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2015/07/wild-west-update.html
Delete